Thanksgiving driving and goodbye to Kyle

Anthony: You’re listening to there auto be a law, the center for auto safety podcast with executive director, Michael Brooks, chief engineer, Fred Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony seminar for over 50 years, the center for auto safety has worked to make cars safer.

Michael: Good morning listeners.

Anthony: Hi everybody. That was an honor of our. Intrepid host, Mr. Fred Perkins, who has the week off. We hear he’s hanging out in his Malibu vacation home windsurfing I don’t know. No, he’s just, he’s got the week off and good for him. It’s a Thanksgiving week here in the…

Us and we’re we’re thankful for his time on the show and he’ll be back next week. Is he back next week? He’s definitely

Michael: back next week. Better be back. I’ll be shocked if we can make it through a few, minutes here. Without it, we can

Anthony: make it through without him. There’s no problem. But also, thanks.

Let’s let’s talk about Thanksgiving. ’cause if you’re out there driving on Thanksgiving don’t. It’s from a report in the Concord Monitor, Thanksgiving is the most dangerous day to drive. An analysis of national car crashes shows that driving on Black Friday, the shopping day after Thanksgiving, is safer than any other time in November, but driving on Thanksgiving itself is much more dangerous.

And I think driving on Black Friday is safer is because you’ve already been pummeled and stampeded while trying to get a juicer.

Michael: I think it goes back to that, we talked about when Cities are when there’s more traffic. We see fewer fatalities. That’s probably related there Because no one can get up to high enough speeds to hurt anyone I don’t know that’s interesting.

One of the interesting part of this is I think most of the Crashes that are happening on Thanksgiving are not necessarily happening during the day on Thanksgiving, most, most deadly crashes happen at night and the kids have apparently taken to calling the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, you’ve got Black Friday.

Wednesday is blackout Wednesday. So And I know it’s, at least in my area of the country, there are a lot of young college kids who are coming home from school and seeing their friends for the first time in a long time today. And they all like to go out and partake in various substances. And that really spikes the crash rate around this time of the year.

And at least that’s my take on it, why we see such a gigantic rise here.

Anthony: Wait, so blackout one, so the idea is, hey, we’re home from

Michael: we’re all home from school and we’re seeing high school friends we haven’t seen in a while and we’re all gonna get hammered.

Anthony: Let’s all get drunk and

Michael: drive.

Yeah it’s, it’s, from a social perspective, it’s understandable you want to see your friends and hang out, but, and you, it doesn’t absolve you from the responsibility, obviously, but.

Reliving high school trauma. Probably the main contributor to this, to the Thanksgiving. Fatalities. Huh.

Anthony: Also in the article it says that the second deadliest day is Memorial Day, which I understand makes sense. Everyone just had a cookout, I had a few too many. Woohoo! It’s like blackout Memorial Day.

Blackout Memorial Day? Sure, why not. And from the article, it’s perhaps surprisingly, New Year’s Eve is the safest holiday. Fatal accidents over the period studied were actually 16 percent lower than the rest of December. That is very shocking to me. Is everyone getting a cab that day?

Michael: Who knows? Humans behavior is very odd. These numbers aren’t it’s not that every single year Thanksgiving is the deadliest holiday. I believe some years it might, switch over to, could be Memorial Day, could be Halloween. It also depends on how you look at the numbers, but it’s There’s really no other explanation for it other than that, there’s already a lot of travel, but generally that travel is, leading up to and after Thanksgiving, I know some people do drive, long distances on Thanksgiving Day, but it doesn’t seem to be as busy on the roads on Thanksgiving as it is during the period around Thanksgiving,

Anthony: I don’t know, I remember driving back Thanksgiving night one year, and saw the New York State 3 way, 2 lane highway. I’m in the right lane, which is the slow lane, and there’s a guy behind me, honking the horn, flashing his lights at me SPEED UP! And I’m like, dude, there’s the passing lane to the left, like why are you doing this?

And he’s, and I’m… Doing, a little over the speed limit. Not a crazy amount, but I’m moving with traffic. There’s a car in front of me a good distance away, but this guy’s insisting I speed up instead of passing me. And then when he eventually goes to pass me, he slows down the car and gestures at me wildly.

Very offensive. I don’t understand what happened there. So that’s weird.

Michael: Maybe, he ate too much turkey. He was trying to get home for his nap. You did say this was New York, right? So that does explain. No,

Anthony: it was not. New Jersey was not Virginia. OK, it was, not Massachusetts. Okay, people in this state can drive.

I don’t know. Listeners, if you’re out there and you’re in Thanksgiving traffic bumper to bumper to bumper to bumper Um, hey, you’ll be safer, more frustrated but don’t drive like a maniac. Because we’re watching, we’re listening to you, and we’ll we’ll ensure that the National Traffic Safety Bureau gets on intelligence speed assistance.

How’s that for a transition? National Transportation Safety Bureau. Dammit, National Transportation Safety Board. Safety Board, sorry. Safety Board! I said Safety Board. THere’s something we’ve talked about before called the speedometer in your car. And for whatever reason, they go up to 180.

We don’t know why. It’s the dumbest thing possible.

Michael: Here’s why. And, I hear this a lot, that speedometers shouldn’t go. higher than a certain amount. The problem is that the cars go over the certain amount. And when you’ve got someone driving a vehicle at 115 miles an hour you want them to know how fast they’re going.

You don’t want to take away the ability for someone to objectively be able to evaluate what speed their vehicle’s going. What would work here is a lot like what, we saw in the Fast Company article from David Zipper, why is the car going that fast in the first place? whY are we building cars that can achieve these speeds?

So the NTSB was studying. A crash in Las Vegas, where some guy who was high on cocaine and PCP, Anthony’s favorite combination. It’s just a Tuesday afternoon. Yeah, he drove right through a red light at 103 miles an hour. And basically killed all seven people in a minivan. And as part of this, they’re, the NTSB looks at this crash and they come up with a lot of recommendations they’ve been recommending for years to NHTSA that NHTSA get some sort of regulation on the books that mandates intelligent speed assistance in cars and intelligent speed assistance At base and what Nitsa would probably mandate is really, I don’t wanna diminish it too much, but it’s just an annoying feature that lets you know when you’re going over the speed limit.

It’s, I, it’s not slowing the vehicle down. And what and that’s something that I think needs to be, everyone that looks at this issue needs to look at, because guys like the guy on cocaine and PCP driving 103 miles per hour through a red light. Do not give a damn about a buzzer, or a warning, or an alarm telling them they’re going too fast.

And not only that, some of these systems, like A, B, and others can be turned off, and I’m sure it’ll be similar. I’ve seen, in proposals around intelligence speed assistance, I’ve seen the ability, it comes on every time you turn on the car, but just like that little… Ignitions auto start that turns off every light you have to manually cut it off if you don’t want it to be on.

So there’s a button that allows you to do that. And the intelligence speed assistance, I’m sure there will be another way to turn it off. In our world of auto safety, it’s not really intelligence and it’s not really assistance, it’s just a warning. What we really need to do is either.

Build vehicles that cannot exceed the maximum speed limit, first of all, and then know which, what the speed limit is wherever they’re traveling and will not exceed the speed limit. And that’s not really what the push is for here. It’s for intelligent speed assistance, and there’s another, they’re calling it active intelligent speed assistance, would be the type that actually, Um, intervenes and slows the vehicle down or prevents it from getting a certain speeds.

And that is what we really want to see. Because people who are speeding and driving recklessly just don’t care about warnings and buzzers. That’s not going to have an appreciable impact. I don’t believe on the fatalities we’re seeing from speeding and the God who knows how many injuries every year.

And so until I think the NTSB. Should be even stronger here. NHTSA hasn’t done anything yet here. They’ve been, basically ignoring this issue There’s a lot of political pushback on this issue because people want to

Anthony: speed Not yet on cocaine and PCB.

Michael: Yeah, but ultimately if you’re not stopping those people You’re not going to address the problem.

If you’re just building warnings and feel good systems in the car that make you think you’re addressing the problem, but you’re not actively addressing it, I don’t think we’re going to see that type of speed warning work to reduce some of the carnage on our roads. It’s really going to take, Telling people they cannot speed and enforcing that on them in their vehicle and That is something that a lot of people seem to think isn’t very American and so it’s a very difficult issue to squeeze through over at NHTSA and Manufactured can you imagine coming out as the only manufacturer that is selling vehicles that refuse to exceed the speed limit?

And what’s going to happen to your sales. So it’s a huge problem. Everybody needs to be, I think it needs to all be done at once. There’s going to be a model year that comes out, say 2025. It certainly won’t be that quick, but vehicles built after 2025 will not exceed the speed limit in your area.

And then, it’s going to take many years before the entire fleet is replaced with vehicles that refuse to exceed the speed limit. Okay. It’s a long process, but if you’re starting with warnings, you’re never going to get to where you need to be, I don’t believe, to ultimately solve the problem.

Anthony: Okay, so let’s just back through this. So the passive system you’re talking about is an alarm. Basically, it has a database and it can track where you are on the roads and says, hey, based on where you’re on the road, you’re going a little fast and ding ding, a seatbelt warning system.

So if you make it that annoying, no one ignores that. What you do at best case is you like, Oh, I’m just going to plug the seatbelt in and sit on top of it because freedom. And you can’t do that with this system. You bury the menu far enough, only maniacs will dig through software and try and disable it.

Active system. Hey, if I’m right is if you exceed the speed, like we’ll let you go above, some certain percentage above,

Michael: let you go a little above maybe four or five, seven, somewhere in there, 30,

Anthony: 40, something like that. And and that will force you to use more. Force on the accelerator to continue at that speed, but what I want to know is the question is okay, so cars, at one point, they tried to have governors in them basically to say, hey, the car can’t go this fast.

And even from this article we’re linking to in Fast Company, it says that modern automobiles do use a governor to limit engine damage, but the threshold is set absurdly high. Often at 155 miles per hour, even safety conscious Volvo allows its cars to reach 112 miles per hour. Whoa.

Michael: Governors are clearly not the solution because they’re only going to address one speed. Even if you governed a vehicle to 80, say, It’s nice, reasonable. So I can still go 80 and a 25 mile per hour school zone and, juniors are useless when it comes to all the different speed limit zones.

We have unless they might, a governor at 80 certainly might have helped out in the crash in Las Vegas. that the NTSB was looking into, and it would prevent a lot of these, really higher speed crashes. There was the one in Los Angeles about a year ago where a nurse was trying to get to work at a hundred miles an hour and killed a car full of people and walked away.

Those kinds of things could be eliminated somewhat with the governor, but ultimately, with the huge number of pedestrian fatalities that we’re seeing in the rise there every year, speed is. Not just an issue on, interstates and highways where you can go very fast, it’s a huge issue in urban areas where there are low speed limits and, people are driving at criminal rates of speed, double or more than what the posted speed limit is.

Anthony: But I guess my question I want to come to is, okay, first I’m gonna play the role of, I’m gonna channel my inner Fred. Sorry, Michael question quiz what state has the highest speed limit?

Michael: I think it’s somewhere out west like Montana or somewhere. It’s Texas.

Anthony: Do you know what the speed limit is?

And it’s 85 miles per hour for cars. Yeah, I don’t know. Okay. Texas has the maximum at 85 miles per hour. Why can I buy a car that goes 120 miles per hour? Like, why what am I, like, why are they, what’s the point of selling cars that can go that fast? My, my little Corolla, its speedometer will go up to, I don’t know, 150, 130, something like that.

I’d be afraid to hit 100 miles per hour on that thing, as I’d imagine it would shake and fall apart. Like I don’t need that kind of power in a three cylinder car. Maybe it’s maybe it actually has four cylinders. I

don’t

Michael: know Yeah, a lot of people you see them on the roads that are going

Anthony: faster Yeah, but what it’s on the question is like why are, okay, I get there’s the lame marketing people who are like, it goes zero to 60 nanoseconds, but who does that?

Teenage boys,

Michael: not really us, I I got a ticket for 60 and a 30 when I was 15, right after I got my driver’s license.

Anthony: Yeah. So teenage

Michael: boys, Yeah, and boys will be boys, but, some boys never grow up, I hope I’ve grown up, but some boys grow up, and they are buying cars, and if you’re limiting your vehicle to 80 miles an hour, for instance, they’re not gonna buy it, they’re gonna go to the guy who’s offering 100.

Anthony: But I guess the, so I guess it’s coming back to the whole NHTSA thing, it’s like, why are they allowing cars to be manufactured that go that fast? Like, why are they allowing those things to be sold? Yes,

Michael: looking back at the, back through history, cars were being sold that exceeded those speeds before NHTSA came into existence.

It was basically already an, an American thing. The 57 Chevy and all the hot rods back then were 10 years before NHTSA ever came around. So people were already pushing the limits of technology. Racing was definitely a thing way before NHTSA came around. So they would be, essentially, they would have the job there of changing an entire culture around speed in the United States.

And it’s not easy, especially, I think we’ve talked before about how people look at their cars like they do at their guns. Although there’s no amendment protecting their cars or their right to drive, but they look at it as a freedom to do whatever they want to do behind the wheel. And when you get into this sphere, you also start to hear all sorts of crazy things about why people need to exceed the speed in emergency situations.

Have you ever needed to exceed the speed limit in emergency situations to get somewhere?

Not just because you’re late. But because there’s an actual emergency that requires you to drive at, high rates of speed to get to your destination.

Anthony: No, I gave up being a superhero long ago, but OK, so yeah, sure.

I get that these things are just to be for NHTSA, but NHTSA managed to get, fuel standards in place. We got rid of leaded gasoline. They changed entire industries. This one seems pretty simple. All those things are

Michael: really changing a function of the vehicle or they impact the manufacturer.

Here, you’re pointing your finger at the people that are speeding in America and say, You’re not doing this anymore. They’re being told what to do and they’re being told how to drive is essentially, how I guess you would see it as a dedicated speeder. And that is un American to them, but it there’s backlash against this. There are, driver’s rights groups that this is their, one of their number one. platforms and ways to raise money is by telling, Americans that their rights are being taken away when ultimately we’re just trying to make the roads safer and not have, 13, 000 speed related deaths on the roads every year.

Anthony: Yeah, I think it’s, they’re taking away my right to smash into people on bicycles. This is, it’s just a silly argument, but okay. I get what’s happening there. Okay. So we’re going to continue along this with speeding everybody. Hey, speeding is fine. Actually listeners before we continue right in, let us know.

I’m really curious have you ever had to rush somewhere in an emergency where you had to go way over the speed limit to save a. Kitten out of a tree or the typical movie scenario, that’s not the emergency. No, but the typical emergency in movies like, oh, my wife’s water broke.

We need to rush to the ER. That’s the Hollywood trope but short of because of hopefully if you got shot in a bank job. You’ve already got stuff set up, you’ve got your medic hidden away, that, that all lets Sly to say, yeah, you can speed in that emergency, but, don’t Yeah that’s not an

Michael: emergency either.

You created that emergency through your illegal bank job, so you

Anthony: know, it was

Michael: That’s not a compelling reason not to put speed limiting technology in cars, bank robbers to get, their wounds healed faster.

Anthony: Clearly not a fan of bank job movies.

Michael: The very, very few things that I might agree with, a specialized surgeon who has to make it to an operating room to save someone’s life.

There are situations where I think we need to say, sure. Sure, that makes sense, but to give that ability to every single human being out there, half of whom often show that they can barely operate at the speed limit is probably a bad idea.

Anthony: Agreed. But hey listeners, let us know if you’re a specialized surgeon and or interested in getting involved in a bank job.

So there’s another article we’re linking to from WUFT. WUFT. Ha. Oh, my child. It’s talking about new road safety report shows reduced pedestrian fatalities using… Speed detection systems. Basically these are the speed cameras that once a month I get a ticket because of someone I live with who keeps speeding too much in a school zone.

But okay, I’m gonna give her a pass because they they change the school zones in New York City to be 24 hours and so she’s gotten two tickets for going 35 in a 25 school zone at 11 o’clock at night on a Sunday, which I think is nonsense because that school is not open. Sure, we were doing PCP and cocaine that night, but that’s not why they got the speeding ticket.

But the article points out basically having these LIDAR and radar systems that, that announce to the user, Hey, we’re gonna catch you for speeding, causes people to slow down driving i. e. impinge on their freedom. And this reduces traffic pedestrian fatalities. So this sounds like a good way to do it.

Michael: Yeah, and this was Florida and they’ve actually done this in Virginia recently as well as these school zone speed limiting cameras and it’s an easy target. To place these things in a good place to start because no one’s going to um, agree with speeding in school zones. And, there are areas where the speed limit is lower to protect people essentially crossing streets, young people crossing streets.

And there’s, it. Speed cameras get a lot of flack, but when you actively use them and the very important part, you actually enforce the outcomes. You have to collect the fines. You have to pursue people who don’t pay the fines. When you do that’s something that DC has failed on lately.

They’ve got a lot of speed camera and they’ve got, you get drivers who are racking up thousands of dollars worth of tickets. Who never pay them and continue to speed. And so you have to enforce those fines as well in order to see a behavioral change. But people become very aware of them really fast.

On the interstate near me on 295 going into the D. C. area, there’s this one spot where there’s one camera and everyone on the highway slows down to 50 miles per hour. Right there. Almost no one misses it because it’s popping up on ways and the people who drive that way every day know about it.

So they work. There’s no question that work people just don’t like them. People don’t like being caught. People don’t like paying fines, but the fact is if you put them in, look, speed cameras. It could be put on every road in America. Ultimately, here’s what it’s going to come down to here.

Either we’re going to have active speed limiting technology in our cars to eliminate speed related deaths, or we’re going to pepper our entire country with speed cameras which, might open a whole host of other problems for some of these freedom advocates who think they need to be able to speed, but.

I Think that the end vehicle part of it makes a lot more sense because vehicles really already have. You’re not talking about some advanced technology that’s going to cost, hundreds or thousands of dollars per vehicle. Most vehicles have the ability to know what their speed is, to limit engine power, and to take the steps necessary to stay at speed limit.

I think the only technical part here that needs to be put into vehicles would be, being able to recognize speed limits in different areas. That’s something that we already see in Teslas and some other vehicles to some extent.

Anthony: And I see that on Google Maps in my car. Yeah. Because half the time I’m on the

Michael: road.

So it’s not, this isn’t some, new age thing. The technology’s there. The acceptance is clearly not, and even if, I think the majority of Americans would probably favor this. It’s, that, that. Very vocal minority that wants to speed that is against it So it’s a problem and we’re gonna continue to

Anthony: see it.

I don’t know listeners Tell us how much do you want to speed versus how much do you like walking? You know You got to balance that out because while you’re walking somebody else is out there speeding and it’s still five points for every pedestrian You hit right is that the law? That’s not the law?

Michael: I haven’t felt the state thing. I haven’t. You know what, I don’t think any points should be awarded for hitting pedestrians,

Anthony: right? Depends. Depends what kind of pedestrian they are. Alright, let’s move off of speed and go into a story from CBS News. And this was this is interesting to me.

So in a couple years ago, President Biden signed the massive Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill, and part of it, NHTSA, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, otherwise known as NHTSA, had to draft a number of new safety regulations including backseat safety, I believe, and that came and went, and they Didn’t do anything, it seems.

Is that right?

Michael: They didn’t do anything yet. Fred told me I was too nice last week when I was talking about NHTSA and it’s safety deadlines in this case.

Anthony: That’s why he’s not here right now. Nothing

Michael: was really expected. NHTSA to jump on top of these things and to get them done before the date Congress mandates.

I don’t know when the last time they actually met a deadline was. As we’ve noted in the past, they’re Standards that they’ve been putting out that have come in, five, 10 years after the deadline that Congress required. So NHTSA is often going to operate on, their own time frame. And sometimes that’s, that’s almost necessary because they’re, they have to craft regulations that can test.

Vehicle safety technology and make sure that those tests are repeatable and fair to everyone involved. And so it’s not always easy. However, some of the delays we’ve seen, like with rear seat back, rear seat belt reminders are technology and just make us scratch our head. These aren’t really complex issues they’re dealing with in situations like that.

And those are the types of things that should come faster. The seat back issue is. A really old issue. It was 50 years ago in 1973. I just told NHTSA, the insurance institute, told NHTSA, we’ve got a bunch of these seat back front seat failures in our rear end crash test. This is basically when the weight of the driver in the in a rear crash, the force Destroys essentially, but breaks the back of the seat and the seat is the back of the front seat Yeah, the front seat the seat can reclaim And there’s a couple of consequences from that, you know This your seat belt’s not going to work as well Your airbag system’s not going to work as well when your seat’s not in the proper position so from a just protecting the person in that seat, there’s a problem, but the even bigger problem is we often see The passenger and the driver in the front seats, when their seat breaks and there are children in the back or other passengers in the back.

Their bodies are being flung, the front seat passengers, into the rear seat passengers. And we have seen horrible cases of this. We’ve seen cases where, you have, um, children killed in the back seat. We’ve seen cases where, both children in the back seat received really traumatic brain injuries.

And this is the head of the parent. Colliding with the child, which is just a, it’s an awful thing, um, to happen. And it’s something that. We’ve been warning NHTSA about the IHS has purged the list goes on and on for many years. IHS warned about it in 1973, in 1974 NHTSA said, yeah, we’re going to do something about that.

Well, 30 years went by and in 2004, they withdrew that rulemaking. They’ve also been petitioned multiple times by engineers and other people to get something done here. And essentially, it’s 50 years later. And we’re, the seat back issue has not been addressed. It’s continuing to happen, and crashes, rear end crashes all the time.

And it’s a, it’s just, it’s a giant tragedy already this whole problem. And it needs to be addressed quickly. And… It appears that NHTSA needs to do more research to figure out how to correct this problem. There are some manufacturers who’ve started adding strength to their seats and who seem to have better outcomes, but there’s just not any good progress that’s been made on this issue.

So that’s what I’m wondering has been very involved in now, and we’re hoping that it speeds

Anthony: up. Because it, how… It doesn’t sound like an incredibly difficult engineering problem, considering all the other engineering that has happened over the last 50 years inside cars. crUmple zones like that.

That, that changed the, not only the basic frame of the vehicles, but the types of materials that are used. And the way they all break apart, modeling all that physics, whereas this is literally the front seat the back on it, where you’re in the driver’s seat, and where you lean your back, your lumbar support region with your heated seats and all that stuff, that mechanism that holds it upright will break in a, in an impact and cause it to slam backwards, slam forwards and backwards, crushing the person behind you, I don’t, hey, Fred, what’s your, Thought on the engineering in this.

He’s speechless. He’s he’s got nothing to say. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, that

Michael: is, it is. That is the, basically the auto industry has resisted this effort for many years now by saying any improvements that they make to the outcomes for the folks in the backseat is going to come at the expense of the person sitting in the front seat, which, oh, the person in the front seat paid the car.

I just think it’s a bunch of baloney. I think they can do both.

Anthony: Yeah, that’s a, that’s another one. Hey, engineers out there tell us why this is hard. Because there could be something we’re missing, but some manufacturers are fixing this issue by adding quote unquote strength.

Why not do it? I don’t get it. I think, put the interior of the car being in fiber carbon fiber monocoque design, I think that’s the way to go, just like Formula 1. But alright, look, this episode’s been very, fairly serious so far, so let’s get on to Kyle Watch! That’s right, ladies and gentlemen, long time listeners of the show, we’ve been reaching out to Kyle Vogt, the CEO of GM Cruise, who’s now the former CEO of GM Cruise.

That’s right, ladies and gentlemen, whoever had November 17th as Kyle’s last day ding, ding, you win! I lost, I assumed he was making it at least through December. But it turns out when you When you’re a tech bro, and you’re full of hubris, to put it nicely, eventually that’s gonna catch up with you and bite you in the ass, especially when your car drags a pedestrian 20 feet, and then you try to lie about it, and it’s not really a good look yeah, so General Motors, they First, before this, they put a lawyer in charge of the company, and they said, Hey, we’re gonna stop all of our vehicles, we’re gonna, we’re gonna regain the public’s trust in us, which, General Motors?

Who’s really got a lot of trust in that company? I don’t know. I don’t know, when it comes to safety, I don’t think, Hey, General Motors they got it down. No, that’s never occurred to me at all, I don’t think anybody has, if anything, General Motors has a long history of hey, let’s put stuff out there, have it explode, pretend it didn’t happen, wait a decade, then pay a billion dollars in fines.

Let’s see, the GM ignition failure problem. For our most recent one. GM, they then they eventually Kyle, you get to we’re firing you. But, when you make that kind of money, and you’re a white guy, you don’t get fired, you get to resign. You get to resign and you get to post stuff on Twitter and be like, Hey, everybody, we’re doing really good work.

It’s great. One of the things I’m gonna jump in here on Kyle is Kyle is the he’s the typical tech bro who, they’re like a child that walks into a room and thinks, Wait I’ve just discovered this room. This is, no one’s ever been here before in the world. It’s It’s stupid and it’s gonna save everyone this way.

Yeah. Kyle, a few years ago, he said basically we as a society seem to be focused more on the anecdotes and headlines than on the real problem, referring to the fact that his cars keep crashing into things and the real problem being, 40,000 deaths a year in car crashes. We agree 100 percent 40, 000 bad number.

We keep groups like us and others work to keep getting that lower. But you know what? Kyle thinks he’s the first person to discover this problem. thAt’s the problem with these tech bros. They think, wait a second. I’ve just learned a new fact. I’ve learned it. Ah, this is the first time I’ve learned it, so I must be the first person learning this.

This is how I’ll do this, ignoring the fact that people have been working on this issue. Not just organizations like the Center for Auto Safety, go there right now and donate. But, a bunch of engineers, the SAE Underwriters Laboratory, everybody has been working on this, legislators, there’s a whole bunch of government acronym soup that’s been working on this.

And so instead of thinking, hey, what’s the easy way to solve this and make an improvement to actually lower those number of deaths, he’s Oh, do remote controlled cars, I had one as a kid I loved it. Thinking, Hey, let’s,

Michael: there’s already, I gotta think Kyle is a little more sophisticated than he’s making it about to be.

I

Anthony: don’t, dang, I look, my experience with the tech bro world was, I remember they’re all like, Hey, there’s problems with poverty in Sub-Saharan Africa. Let’s give them all laptops. And I’m like, Hey, how about let’s give. Potable water. That will save lives. eSsentially, that’s what this whole self driving nonsense is.

Hey, let’s give people automatic emergency braking. Let’s give them things like vehicle to infrastructure. Let’s give them technology that’s available and works today. Just keep making it better. But GM they got caught up in this, and they’ve been spending billions of dollars, and, uh, they were under the impression that by 2030, I believe, that this was going to be a one trillion dollar market, which is amazing, because the entire global ride hailing industry is under 30 billion dollars.

So that’s phenomenal growth, and GM thought, hey, we’re going to own that as a one trillion dollar market. So I think eventually Mary Barra, she was like, wait a second, what is this stuff we’ve been smoking? Let’s not do this anymore. Hey, we give thanks to Kyle for his service in Tech Brew

Michael: Hubris. Yeah, that’s, really that’s a lot of what the problem here is, Hubris.

We noticed an uptick in the, some of the push to A lot of bad things on human behavior and say, Oh, we can solve this. Right around the time that he took over at cruise, they, there was, there’s certainly been a pretty heavy lobbying push. we Know they’re lobbying state, governors, legislators pretty hard, particularly in California.

I know that Gavin Newsom has been lobbying pretty hard on these issues, which is why he has vetoed good ideas like putting safety drivers into autonomous trucks. BuT ultimately, I think the problem here is that the technology is just not mature, GM was used to putting out a new model every year, right?

2023 2024. They’ve got it. They’re going to put it out. Come hell or high water. But in this case, the technology is simply not mature. You can’t put up, you can’t say you’re going to put out a RoboTaxi that works in a safe and then do it in a two to three year span. Ask Waymo, they’ve been saying it’s coming for over a decade now and it’s still coming and it’s a slow, I think a slow iterative process that requires.

In my opinion at this point, it still requires a trained safety driver. And crews just wasn’t patient, basically. They wanted to, they started expanding to other cities far too quickly before they, while they were still having massive problems in San Francisco with the fire department.

And with, and all the other things we’ve detailed. So it’s simply going to take time. You’re not going to be able to get this done on, and the schedule that your investors would like you to. It’s not, a one year or two year or even five year plan here. It’s further out of the future.

And if your investors aren’t happy with that. Then perhaps you should be in another business. I

Anthony: think Honda agrees with you. And that’s why they pulled out of GM cruise a while back. And that’s why Ford and Volkswagen said, yeah, let’s shut down our self driving business because this is not going to happen.

Michael: I bring it up all the time and our listeners are probably tired of hearing it, but I just don’t see the use case, for the Uber or something else, obviously. Okay. It’s safer, but. When you’re talking about humans who, you’re, there’s one death every, X hundred million miles.

That doesn’t really factor into people’s choices so much. You’re not going to say, Oh, I want to get into this. RoboTaxi because it’s going to keep me safe versus this Uber that can carry my groceries in the house for me. It’s a tough choice to make and it’s not something people are ever really going to wrap their heads around the extent that It you know, I think RoboTaxi has become a clear leader in the area It just seems like they’re throwing a lot of money at them.

But even once you’ve got a system of urban robo taxis. Are you going to make that much money on them? Are you ever going to realize your investment? I don’t know. No, I think trucking and some other areas are probably a lot, there’s a lot better chance. That investors are going to end up happy in the end versus, we’ve seen Uber, struggle for many years to achieve profits and they’ve got real humans driving their cars.

I just, I’ll digress and just repeat once again that the use case here for these is I’m still

Anthony: skeptical. I, yeah I’m skeptical, but I love the idea of Uber. Of driverless cars. I love this entirely. I joke with my wife all the time saying, Hey, we’re going to be retired. We’re going to get a Winnebago and it’s just going to drive us cross country.

Michael: I would love, look, I think we would all love that. If we knew it was going to be safe, obviously nothing is going to be 100 percent safe. And

Anthony: so something that’s safer

Michael: than me. I welcome that’s just not here yet.

Anthony: I’ve never seen you drive, so I don’t know. We’ll see.

And you never will. You’re like Elon Musk that way. I’ve never seen him drive

Michael: either. Because if I come to see you in New York City, I’m not going to be in a

Anthony: car. Smart. There’s no need to be in a car here. I hate driving in the city. I had to do it the other day because I had to drive a friend somewhere.

Because mass transit just wouldn’t take us where we needed to go. But anyway,

Michael: parking every night is what? 70 bucks. Good

Anthony: Lord. You can just drive around the block a bunch of times. So yeah, so GM cruises essentially still on a death watch. They canceled their employee equity plan a week or two ago.

Are they? Yeah, they’re like, we gotta reprice this because it turns out the numbers we’ve been making up, even no one believes those BS numbers anymore either. But this is interesting. There’s an article we’re linking to in the Wall Street Journal. So as soon as Kyle’s gone, a little more truth comes out.

So we’ve talked about the crew’s origin. This is the Honda Odyssey connected to the ugly part of a Honda Odyssey with no steering wheel, no pedals and whatnot. Apparently, I didn’t know this, but they were out on the streets of Austin. They weren’t picking people up. It did GM Cruises do.

It spazzed out and drove full speed into a building. Thankfully, no one was hurt. But then you have a problem of how do you move a car with no steering wheel, no pedals or anything like that out of a building? GM Cruise employees showed up with a blue tarp and covered it. Nothing to see

Michael: here.

Nothing to see

Anthony: here. Oh my word. GM Cruise. I’m sure Kyle’s having a little…

Michael: Yeah, and that’s the other thing, GM came out, Cruise came out, and I believe it was a tweet from Kyle saying, Essentially that they’ve gotten federal approval for the origin exemption to operate it and that was months ago and we still haven’t seen that yet either.

It gives you a window into the loose approach to truth that they’re taking over there and that, I think a lot of tech companies. Take in

Anthony: this space. Yeah. Listeners, especially out in the California area, if you’re wondering, wait, how do these things actually get on the road here?

Everybody in San Francisco in Los Angeles were against these things. How did they get on the road here? So Michael pointed out briefly to it. There’s this lobbyist tied to the governor. And this lobbyist used to work for Newsom and basically his company Axiom Ventures. Is it Axiom Ventures?

Axiom something or other they’ve been Cruz has hired them to have this guy go to his buddy Gavin Newsom and be like, Hey, Gavin, heh, these things are safe. And Gavin’s cool, how much of a donation do I get? And he’s gotcha. thAt is the long and short of it. Prove me wrong,

Michael: bro.

Yeah. That’s the long and short of it, and the real short of it for us is that I think Gavin Newsom, he’s been fairly disappointing in this area. ThAt’s the title of the episode. Vetoing the truck bill, but in, in some other safety issues we’ve been involved with. And, when. A couple, I think it was a couple of weeks ago when he was speaking somewhere and he literally sounded like someone selling driverless vehicles and selling this idea that they’re, they’re there and they’re going to save us all.

That was. That was the message that was coming out of his mouth, which suggested to me that’s the message he’s heard a lot. And, there, when you talk to people who are involved in this industry and they’re going to these different, events that are hosted by Waymo or Cruise or any of the driverless companies, there is a ton of hype.

It is, there are disabilities advocates saying it’s going to save them. Everyone there thinks that the safety implications, of this technology mean that we’re going to eliminate fatalities and, there’s just all this rah, rah we’re going to save the world. This is the greatest thing ever atmosphere.

But the fact is we’re just so far away from that. That, that, at this point, you can’t, I don’t know it’s disconcerting to see a governor get sucked up into that mindset without really being able to look at the facts on the ground and where the technology is right now. So we would ask Governor Newsom to take another look at this and try to…

Look around all the lobbyists that are standing in front of

Anthony: you. Yeah. So this was the perfect storm. So we had the tech bro hubris, we had a governor who was lobbied, we’ll put it lightly. And then we had a company called, that’s not exactly

Michael: an unusual

Anthony: and and GM. Okay and GM, in terms of their safety record we’ll flash back in time to the they had a problem with their Chevy Cobalts, and in 2014, GM decided, hey, we look really bad at this, a lot of people are dying, so they created a global head of safety role in 2014.

That role doesn’t exist anymore. far as anyone can tell. Yeah, we

Michael: haven’t been able to figure out what happened there.

Anthony: So they had a guy there who was in charge and he doesn’t work there anymore and then they hired a replacement and that guy doesn’t work there anymore because everyone’s wait, but hey, GM, if you’re hiring, I will gladly take this role.

I will sit around and do nothing, but I’ll take the paycheck.

Michael: I don’t think we can have you on our podcast if you’re getting paid by GM, Anthony.

Anthony: It’s GM, how much could they pay? I don’t know. Speaking of tech bro hubris, Tesla is trying to get into the nickel and diming business. Tesla is, it’s like every day there’s something new and exciting and stupid.

This isn’t

Michael: even new. It’s, they’re essentially… We’re gonna, we’re gonna charge you for things that you bought with your car. Yeah, we know your car came with heat seeders already installed and working, but we’re gonna make them a subscription.

Anthony: Yeah, so if you your Tesla came out of the factory and it had rear heat seeders installed, do you want to turn that on?

Turn it on anytime. 300. How about don’t put that in my car? Because I just look at that as if I’m a consumer, I, you sold me a car that has something in there that has a potential for failure that I didn’t ask for. And what could go wrong? Yeah, and it’s

Michael: off the vehicle when it’s pre installed. And you don’t really have a choice in it.

Yeah,

Anthony: so Tesla’s playing with that. And that’s not the

Michael: only problem here. It’s, one of the other things they note is, not just heated seats, but heated

Anthony: wipers. Wait, so this was confusing. According to this article we have in AutoEvolution some hacker was looking at their, one of their software builds, and, From him, it says it indicates that not only that heated front seats will be a pay for play and wipers will soon become paid features.

Now, a heated wipe? What’s a…

Michael: It has to be a heated wiper because you can’t make wiper subscriptions. They’re required by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. What’s a heated wiper? Heated wipers are above and beyond, right? They’re not required by the government. What is a hidden wiper? So a blue wiper, I assume, is going to help you with your defragging and defogging and defrosting,

Anthony: but like the wiper material itself is a rubber, like I don’t want that to get hot.

Can I just be wiping goo on my windshield? You

Michael: know, I’m sure there’s, I’m sure they work great, otherwise people wouldn’t be willing to pay for them, right? I don’t know, it’s Tesla, who knows? I’m sure they work great. It does, that’s one of the areas where things start getting creaky on subscriptions when you are charging people for features that would make the vehicle safer.

If they were active, like if someone gets in a crash because their windows fogged up and you would just cancel their subscription to the heated windshield wipers, then, that’s a problem for us. We don’t think that anything remotely related to safety should be put out as a subscription whether or not it’s required by federal standards.

Heated seats, fine. Heated cup holders, fine.

Anthony: Wait, there’s heated cup

Michael: holders? Who knows? Anything is game these days, Anthony, and look at what they’re putting out, do you want a yoke steering wheel? No,

Anthony: I don’t. I don’t want a yoke steering wheel.

Michael: Oh, almost any creature comfort, is something that I think could, fine.

Subscriptions are fine, but… Installing all of this stuff into cars when a lot of it’s never going to be used just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, from an environmental perspective and many other

Anthony: ways. Yeah listener, if you’re gonna subscribe to anything, I’ve become a subscribing donor to the Center for Auto Safety.

What is that? You go to autosafety. org, click on donate, and then just donate monthly. That helps us so we can track revenue better. Do as little as five bucks a month or 50, 000 a month. 50, 000 a month is much better than 5 a

Michael: month. 50, 000 a month and Anthony will come heat your seat for you

Anthony: every day.

Every day I will come and heat your seats. Some restrictions apply. But, yeah, go ahead and make this donation, and what do you get for it? You get to know that we’re working on things like pointing out the futility of people like corporations like GM Cruise. Discussing issues of weight in vehicles, of how more weight equals more danger.

We’re the only ones talking about things like this. We’re the only ones talking about seat back collapse. If I keep saying we’re the only ones talking about these things, it’s gonna be true. Now, it’s, there’s… There’s us and there’s another guy somewhere, but, no one listens to his podcast cause cause it’s just, it doesn’t exist.

I’ve got nothing. Look, my caffeine, the caffeine literally just fell out of my body at that

Michael: moment. It did. Now, what do you think about the Cyber

Anthony: Boat? Oh my god, the Cyber Boat. First of all, this is a product where I didn’t think we were allowed to discuss on this show ever again. Oh, this is a boat. Oh, okay.

Michael: Elon… I am, I have been sickened by discussing the Cybertruck so much lately because it’s just going to be such a niche product. I don’t think it’s going anywhere. It’s not like it’s going to take over America’s roads to the extent that the really other, the heavy EVs that are going to pose a safety hazard are.

aNd I think I’ve gone on extended rants about it, but now, Elon is, saying it can float, and they’re doing shots of it driving into the Gulf of Mexico as part of their promotions, which, to me, is a horrible thing to show people, because that’s probably one of the more dangerous situations you can put yourself into.

I don’t know,

Anthony: electric vehicles and salt water, what could go wrong?

Michael: He says they can cross rivers. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to cross a river. I know you have, Anthony, and you have, too, in kayaks and many other things, and the idea of being in a cybertruck crossing a river sounds like one of the most dangerous things you could do.

Anthony: Yeah, I don’t know. What’s a… Definitely if it’s cold. Stainless steel and salt water. I don’t know. What could go wrong? Yeah, and

Michael: then there’s the whole salt water battery intrusion. Salt bridges and fire issue, as well as just any type of salt water getting into a vehicle is hell.

Anthony: But hey, if you’re waiting on your Cybertruck, the rumor has it that November 30th, they’re finally going to start delivering them.

You know what else is going to happen on November 30th? The Center for Auto Safety is going to release something even bigger than the Cybertruck. What? How is that possible? Yeah, even bigger. Bigger and a lot more fun than a cyber truck and cheaper much cheaper more fun. Great taste less filling I don’t know about taste.

I wouldn’t eat this thing. You know I’m sure somebody has people put everything in their mouth at this point But anyway, go to autosafety. org click on donate and you can you know, you’ll feel good about yourself We’re like, haha. They made me giggle or haha. That host was really annoying and But, Michael needs some money because he has to put up with this.

Let’s go into

Michael: That went by really fast. We’re almost an hour in already.

Anthony: I know. We’re flying. Look at that. We don’t need no Fred. But before we do that, I want to, before we go into recalls, let’s do the consumer warning on auto glass insurance scams. This is an article linking to from the Washington Post.

This is hey, another reason not to live in Florida. Auto there’s some sort of scams going around where these insurance companies call them harvesters, and their sales pitch to owners is simple. Autoglass shops can offer free windshield replacements because it’s covered by comprehensive insurance.

All they need is a signature, but then things go sideways. So what’s happening here, Michael?

Michael: So essentially, this is very similar to something that a lot of us may have experienced. When if you’re a homeowner and you have people coming to your door asking you to evaluate your house for hail damage typically unsolicited, any type of unsolicited person knocking on your door should be looked upon with suspicion unless they’re wearing a Boy Scout or Girl Scout

Anthony: uniform.

And then you really look at them suspiciously.

Michael: Maybe in your house. This is similar. It’s basically these guys are going around instead of looking at the, shoddy condition. Looking for, houses with roofs that are in slightly shoddy condition. They’re looking for people with cars who have cracks and other things and they come knock on your door.

Try to figure out who you are. Maybe they call you. I don’t know exactly how that part works, but They’re essentially trying to get you to sign off on a replacement for your glass that they then send to Your insurer and the bill is enormous. And so I don’t know about you anthony, but if I have a cracked windshield, I go to my insurer I think I pay like a fifty dollar deductible and safe light comes out to my house To my driveway, puts a new windshield on.

Anthony: Wait, you only have a 50 deductible? Yeah, it’s nothing, right? Mine I think is like 500 deductible.

Michael: It’s great and that’s how it works. And it’s, a comp, it’s a system that’s run by my insurance company in partnership with the Glass company. And, caveat here, I’ve got a 2019 Volkswagen Jetta that does not have a windshield crash avoidance or other type of technology sensors built into the windshield.

I think we’ve talked a lot about Fred’s problems with his Subaru. They’re behind the windshield and getting those things repaired can really be a pain in the ass. So that’s one issue here. You’ve got these, basically there’s, they’re scamming insurance ultimately, but what’s happening is that, there are a lot of lawyers in Florida who are getting involved with this, I’m not sure.

It seems like, these aren’t the kind of lawyers that are. I don’t know, maybe they’re out of work or they have a low caseload and they’re having to take on some really shady lawsuits, but it’s driving up insurance for everyone else in Florida because, everyone else who is doing the right thing and getting their, paying their 200 or 50 deductible is having their rates rise because the insurance companies are having to fight off these, lawsuits and all these other outside guys.

Last shops who, are charging them really high rates of repair, really high rates for repair. So it’s a growing problem. It looks like it’s happening only in Florida for the most part now but we wanted to make everyone aware of it just in case you see someone who comes by and has some great ideas on how you can spiff up your windshield or any other for auto glass because it’s probably better to contact your insurance company first or Someone you trust rather than a random person walking up to your door

Anthony: Don’t trust the strangers.

Stranger Danger. Stranger Danger. And now with that, it’s time for Recall Roundup.

First one we’re gonna hit is from Honda. Potentially 248. 1999 vehicles this is for the 2015 to 2020 Acura TLX, the Acura MDX, 2016 Honda Pilots Honda Odyssey, Honda Ridgelines. I’m not going to read through all of these.

It’s basically

Michael: all of… The bigger midsize SUVs, minivan pickups that

Anthony: Honda makes. So this is if the connecting rod bearing seizes, the engine can be damaged and run improperly, stall, stop while driving, and or not start, increasing the risk of fire crash or injury. During production of the crankshaft, due to improper settings of equipment used to manufacture the engine crankshaft, the crankpin was improperly ground, resulting in crankpins with a crown or convex shape that are out of specification.

How, ugh, so that’s potentially 249, 000 vehicles? That’s a big mistake. That’s more than a Friday afternoon. That’s somebody that’s more than one somebody not checking things. That’s a pretty big one.

Michael: Yeah, it just looks like a screw up on the equipment making the crankshaft themselves.

It’s a rather large recall and, it’s, it results, there’s, they note that it has, it is a fire risk. So it’s, there’s obviously your crankshaft breaks, your vehicle’s going to lose power. You’re going to stall or stop wherever you are, be unable to move the vehicle out of the road if it’s there.

And you won’t be able to start it up, and it also increases the risk of fire. I’m not exactly sure how it does that, um, because they don’t detail that in their report. But, that there is a stalling and fire risk here. And it looks like they’re going to be getting…

Anthony: tHe registered owners will be contacted.

It

Michael: looks like they already started on their notification on this recall. Yeah.

Anthony: And if you’ve already paid to have this repair completed at your own expense you’ll be reimbursed.

Michael: Actually, it looks like they’re going to start owner notification on this right at the new year, January 2nd.

If you’re a Honda SUV minivan, Acura SUV minivan owner, you can expect to receive a recall notice in the mail in early January. And in the meantime, be aware that this problem exists and, um, it’s possible that your vehicle, has a proper crankshaft in it. There’s no definite safety problem in your vehicle right now.

But, once you get to January, the dealer will inspect it and you’ll know whether or not, or they will know whether or not you have the recall condition and replace it as necessary.

Anthony: Okay, that’s our only recall, and now we have some investigations. Kia America, this is 2016 2017 Sorentos with the 3.

3 liter engines. Loss of motive power due to head gasket head bolt failure. The Office of Defect Investigations has received 13 complaints alleging incidents of loss of motive power. We’ll see what happens with

Michael: this one. We’ve received a few complaints from consumers on this problem. The really large Hyundai and Kia fire recall was the Theta 2 engine.

Which was a smaller engine than this. This was in some of the larger SUVs. But we continued to receive, complaints from consumers saying, Hey, all these other recalls happened and our vehicles haven’t been recalled yet for this issue. What’s wrong? You have the lambda three engine and it looks like this is, getting around to that one now as part of, it’s general look into the key investigation that started in 2019.

So we’ll see what happens there. The other key related thing this week there’s an, what they call an audit query. And so we talked about a month ago about the. Key and Hyundai interlock brake system fire issue. And as it turns out, most of those, I think all of those recalls were involved a specific interlock brake system module and the HECU, the hydraulic electric control unit manufactured by one equipment supplier called Mando, M A N D O.

And so over the course of Seven years between 2016 and 2023, Kia and Hyundai issued 16 separate recalls on these issues. And it covered about six and a half million vehicles. What NHTSA is doing now is going back and saying, you knew this was all one manufacturer or a similar problem in all these vehicles.

Why did it take 16 separate recalls over seven years to get this safety issue addressed? Penalties aren’t strong enough. I think they’re going to find that basically, pre 2020, Hyundai and Kia had some really bad safety practices. They’ve had to, they’ve already entered into a consent agreement with NHTSA and paid tens of millions of dollars and built a giant safety testing center in Michigan that just opened because of those things.

And so this may be, that may be what they find here. We just weren’t doing it right then and now. We’re doing it right. Maybe. Maybe they aren’t. We’ll see.

Anthony: Maybe they’ve decided to stop hiring children from their suppliers. Ha. Okay. I’m gonna jump to a listener feedback we got, which I haven’t shared with you yet.

This is a good one, I think, and this is how we’re gonna end. Dear Pod, There should be a way for the government to declare auto safety features are of such public value that the government requires them for all new autos five years after the inter Initial introduction. Fixed income for fixed time off technology.

Fund it with military emergency funding by calling it the war against killing for fun and profit. Sincerely, your eco socialist fan.

Michael: Let’s do it. We would have a lot if, if that was the case, we would have a lot of things going into vehicles right now. That, automatic emergency braking would have been in every car, what.

Six, seven years ago really good automatic emergency brake would be going to cars now. Everyone in five years would be getting some of the advanced cruise and ultra cruise and super cruise and blue cruise and autopilot and all those neat features that are out there. Who knows? I don’t know that, america works that way. That’s part of the problem. Things are really creaky and take a long time here. If Europe operates like that, they get things on the boat quick, they get, they’re destroying us in America when it comes to both safety and getting technology into vehicles fast.

They’ve already got intelligent speed assistance coming to their vehicles. Not the kind I’d like, which is active and is actively going to slow people down, but hopefully that’s going to come sooner. I’m sure when that comes, it will happen here for America. But your version that

Anthony: you’d like to be active is if someone is speeding, a hand comes out of the steering column and slaps someone in the face.

I wish.

Michael: But that would probably cause, other safety issues. Let’s just focus on slowing the car down first. Fine, you’re no fun. Making sure everything’s safe, and then we can slap. Yo,

Anthony: no, bro, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna get rid of the steering wheel and the pedals. And magical thinking will make it go.

Can SoftBank give me a billion dollars? And I’ll call it WeDrive. Is this

Michael: Kyle’s new job? I

Anthony: don’t know, but I figure anything that SoftBank Funds is stupid, it’s just, they’re the perfect example of money does not equal brains. Hey, and with that, listeners, because you definitely have brains, and maybe you’ve got a dollar or two, send them to the Center for Auto Safety, it is tax deductible.

Oh boy, we love those deductions. Thanks for listening, we’ll be back next week, so we’ll senior correspondent Fred Perkins and We’ve got some more things to talk about. Maybe we’ll talk about Hoboken and pedestrians. I want to. sO thanks.

Michael: Bye. Bye everyone. For more information, visit www.

autosafety. org